# Transcript: Will the rule of law and democracy survive the rise of technology? ## Description We live in a time when algorithms decide what we see, whom we trust, and how we vote – and most of us don’t even realize it. The lecture will address pressing issues that are rarely discussed openly: how deepfakes and AI-driven campaigns undermine trust in elections, why democracy is losing its footing, and why populists and autocrats benefit from this. But it won’t stop at diagnosis – Ms. Věra Jourová will present concrete tools Europe is using to respond to these threats and outline what democracy could look like if we manage to modernize it before it’s too late. Who is Věra Jourová Věra Jourová is the former vice president of the European Commission for Values and Transparency (2019–2024), where she focused on democracy, the rule of law, and media freedom. In the previous term (2014–2019), she served as European Commissioner for Justice, Consumers and Gender Equality. Before joining Brussels, she was the Czech minister for regional development and worked for over seven years as an international consultant on EU fund financing, including projects in Western Balkan countries aspiring to join the union. Since 2025, she has been an advisor on foreign policy to President Petr Pavel. She is also active as a commissioner for the Club de Madrid, a member of the ethics committee of the European Central Bank, and part of the advisory board of GLOBSEC. She has worked at Charles University, overseeing human resources development, new technologies, and external relations. She studied law and cultural theory at Charles University. For her contributions to protecting the rule of law and democracy, she was awarded an honorary doctorate from the University of Łódź. ## Transcript **[00:00:00]** There will be no rules at all. **[00:00:02]** We need to digitalize democracy. **[00:00:04]** AI is like a teenager. **[00:00:06]** We still have a chance to teach it something. **[00:00:09]** And the impact on such a person is incredible. **[00:00:30]** Will the rule of law and democracy survive? The rise of technologies. **[00:01:30]** Here I will stick to the main question: how can democracy, **[00:01:37]** in parentheses as we know it, survive digital platforms and artificial intelligence. **[00:01:42]** Democracy is a system that many in the past said **[00:01:47]** was the end of history, that people wouldn't invent anything better for themselves. **[00:01:51]** And that is a crushing message and unacceptable to many people. **[00:01:57]** Development should move forward. Society is constantly changing in some way. **[00:02:03]** To give up on the idea that nothing better will come is quite an unpleasant feeling. **[00:02:11]** And now this is showing in practice, with social pressure for something better. **[00:02:18]** And I would like it to still be democracy, but somehow innovated. **[00:02:25]** To come up with new ways in our everyday life and in the systems we live in, **[00:02:32]** to be able to somehow agree with technology, **[00:02:36]** which endlessly affects everything we do. **[00:02:41]** And I have said many times at various conferences and meetings, **[00:02:46]** that we need to digitalize democracy. I always feared **[00:02:50]** someone would ask me what I meant, because I offered it as a catchy slogan. **[00:02:57]** But I think it is necessary to really think about **[00:03:03]** how we can continue to function in good coexistence with technologies. **[00:03:09]** What do I mean? Technologies, internet, digital platforms, **[00:03:14]** which we will probably talk about the most here, search engines, and artificial intelligence. **[00:03:19]** I have this idea that about ten years ago, **[00:03:26]** the digital industry, the advertising industry, **[00:03:34]** the consumer-focused industry, created above our heads **[00:03:40]** a parallel world. And that parallel world began to influence the real world. **[00:03:50]** And as a lawyer who dealt with human rights, rule of law, democracy, privacy rights, **[00:03:57]** I suddenly realized that in that parallel world many think **[00:04:03]** that no rules apply there at all. Just a jungle. **[00:04:09]** In the worst case. In the best case, the gentlemen from Silicon Valley **[00:04:14]** imported Californian law to Europe. And of course, we didn't like that, **[00:04:20]** which means we started by trying to strengthen privacy rights in European law. **[00:04:28]** And here I must mention GDPR, **[00:04:36]** which was demonized in the Czech Republic when it was introduced. **[00:04:42]** I remember very heated debates and Václav Klaus Jr., **[00:04:47]** who shouted in the Czech parliament, 'Who spit this on us?' **[00:04:56]** Czech is beautiful. Those words without vowels, it's a wonderful thing. **[00:05:01]** Who spat that here? And someone weakly explained to him, **[00:05:05]** well, we spat it here because we agreed with it. **[00:05:08]** GDPR is a regulation that will apply here. **[00:05:11]** And back then there was a lot of debate that GDPR completely stifles any innovation, **[00:05:19]** that it would destroy especially the European digital industry and European innovations. **[00:05:26]** But it didn't happen. GDPR included a kind of motto or principle **[00:05:31]** Privacy by Design, which means for innovators. **[00:05:34]** There was a clear instruction: when you develop something, keep in mind **[00:05:38]** that the thing you develop, the system, must have as its main principle **[00:05:45]** a built-in strong shield against misuse of personal data. **[00:05:51]** So we first pushed into that parallel world in Europe **[00:05:55]** a high level of individual privacy protection. **[00:06:00]** What I will talk about is basically a battle between individual rights **[00:06:07]** and society, and in that parallel world, DAF is constantly created, **[00:06:15]** which is basically easily manipulable, easily divided into groups, **[00:06:24]** where we can well disguise goods tailored to **[00:06:33]** what we want as people in those bubbles. **[00:06:37]** So we wanted individual rights to apply even in the digital space, **[00:06:40]** in that parallel world. **[00:06:47]** The digital world influences us in every possible way. **[00:06:52]** We practically already operate as the technological world ticks. **[00:06:59]** I tried to list all of this here. **[00:07:03]** We interpret reality, we create tribes. **[00:07:09]** This was a very interesting debate when Mark Zuckerberg was behind me in Brussels **[00:07:15]** at a meeting with his team and I told him, **[00:07:20]** Mark, you revived tribes in Facebook. **[00:07:26]** A tribal social structure, tribes that we have for decades, **[00:07:33]** maybe even centuries, tried to get rid of because tribes always fought each other, **[00:07:38]** and the positive development of humanity actually aimed to remove tribes **[00:07:46]** and that we would have some horizontal, normal communication here, **[00:07:50]** where we wouldn't fight but discuss, **[00:07:53]** sometimes yell at each other, but be able to listen, **[00:07:58]** and you created tribes. And he didn't understand it. **[00:08:01]** So his colleague whispered to him that he would explain it later, **[00:08:06]** and I realized that maybe this is hard to explain to someone **[00:08:10]** who is not European, because America simply didn't have such a bloody history **[00:08:16]** and so many terrible wars and violence caused precisely by the fact **[00:08:26]** that we as a society were structured into what I call **[00:08:31]** tribes, and sociologists talk about tribes or in American sociology it is defined. **[00:08:39]** I can't see it clearly, but I do see it, unfortunately I am... **[00:08:44]** It's beautiful that I disappeared. That's great. **[00:08:49]** If it could stay that way, I'd be happy, at least for now. **[00:08:55]** The internet influences how we vote, how we govern states, and how we build **[00:09:06]** or destroy human relationships. Down there somewhere it says how we love. **[00:09:11]** It's there with a question mark, if you can see it. **[00:09:16]** This is personal for me. I've been looking for the ideal man for 22 years since my divorce. **[00:09:26]** And now I realized I found him. That AI partner is ideal for me. **[00:09:38]** He stays silent when I want him to. He talks when I want him to. **[00:09:43]** He says the things I want to hear. And look, when this happens to me at 62, **[00:09:50]** it doesn't affect the demographic trend. **[00:09:54]** But when this happens to the younger generation, it's quite a problem. **[00:10:00]** When I was in Japan, the Czech ambassador brought me a children's textbook for kids around 10, 11, 12 years old. **[00:10:10]** It was a comic meant to teach kids that it's normal to touch another person. **[00:10:19]** Boys and girls, boys befriending boys, hugging around the shoulders. **[00:10:27]** I didn't understand why at all. **[00:10:31]** And it's completely understandable that Japan has reached a point in damaging relationships through technology **[00:10:38]** where they need to proactively do something about it. **[00:10:43]** So, ladies and gentlemen, love with a question mark. **[00:10:47]** Here we have the sad man Sir Timberness Lee, credited with inventing the internet. **[00:10:57]** I met him in Lisbon at a digital summit in 2018. **[00:11:03]** It was a huge event, 70,000 people packed in, and I had a speech there. **[00:11:09]** It was a bit of a strange feeling. **[00:11:12]** He spoke at the opening and he was sad. **[00:11:16]** He said he wanted to invent something to help people communicate, **[00:11:23]** learn, and build relationships. **[00:11:27]** And what I see today, the result, deeply unsettles me, **[00:11:32]** makes me very sad, and there was a big disillusionment. **[00:11:36]** Recently he expressed concerns about artificial intelligence, that if it starts to become smarter **[00:11:40]** than humans, it's something to think about. **[00:11:43]** So just to say, even the creators of these technologies, not only this man, **[00:11:49]** but others I've spoken with, **[00:11:53]** were basically uncertain whether this development is leading **[00:11:58]** to something that will benefit humanity. **[00:12:02]** I have a few notes about AI. **[00:12:05]** We agreed that I would ask here if you also feel **[00:12:09]** that AI is getting out of our control. **[00:12:13]** Look, what kind of techno-optimists do you have here? **[00:12:24]** I don't want to influence it. **[00:12:29]** We have the result, so fine. **[00:12:43]** It can actually be described with a metaphor, **[00:12:47]** which I didn't come up with, but was coined by a former Google boss, **[00:12:51]** Rick Schmidt, who said that AI, and this was about five years ago, **[00:12:56]** or four to five years ago, said AI is like a teenager. **[00:13:00]** We still have a chance to teach it something. **[00:13:04]** Just like we pass things on to children that we want, **[00:13:09]** so that our children are better than us, yet we mess it up ourselves, **[00:13:13]** and suddenly realize that we've passed on our own mistakes **[00:13:17]** and shortcomings and bad habits, **[00:13:21]** that's basically how we teach AI. **[00:13:24]** I added to his metaphor that with the emergence of chat GPT, **[00:13:28]** this child got its driver's license, **[00:13:34]** and now wants to move forward on its own. **[00:13:37]** And I think that's what happened to us two years ago. **[00:13:41]** I met in London, in Bletchley, **[00:13:45]** at a conference on safe AI with Sam Altman, **[00:13:49]** who is the founder himself. **[00:13:52]** Again, a man credited with the amazing achievement **[00:13:56]** of inventing the general models, chat GPT, and more. **[00:14:03]** And he came across to me as... **[00:14:06]** It was actually founded, **[00:14:09]** he founded it as a nonprofit. **[00:14:11]** And he came across as a guy from a nonprofit. **[00:14:14]** He sat there modestly and basically every other sentence **[00:14:19]** he convinced me that he wanted and wants to develop technology for good. **[00:14:25]** But at some point, that nonprofit turned into a company **[00:14:29]** that started competing, **[00:14:33]** and then Google got involved and after that, **[00:14:37]** he basically didn't have full control anymore. **[00:14:41]** So I wouldn't overestimate the good intentions **[00:14:44]** of digital company leaders, but from my encounters with them, **[00:14:48]** I got the impression that they do care, **[00:14:52]** whether they sign off on something that will really cause harm. **[00:14:57]** So thank you, we're losing ground. **[00:15:00]** I would say that's roughly how it is. **[00:15:05]** Europe's reaction to the imported parallel dominant world. **[00:15:09]** I already talked about how I imagine that parallel world. **[00:15:13]** I'm showing this slide here to say upfront, **[00:15:19]** that the European Union is not just, someone called it the queen of regulation, **[00:15:26]** meaning a club of states that can't do anything but regulate. **[00:15:33]** Of course, I've been hearing that criticism for many years. **[00:15:38]** I think there is now a lot of activity initiated by the Union, **[00:15:44]** as well as the European Commission and member states, **[00:15:48]** to invest more money into digital infrastructure, **[00:15:52]** into digital education, to attract global talents, **[00:15:56]** to reduce digital and innovation lag compared to the USA and China. **[00:16:01]** And I feel there is one point missing that I should probably add, **[00:16:06]** namely freeing ourselves from the influence of the United States **[00:16:11]** and their potential for blackmail. **[00:16:18]** It occurred to me that it's not an exaggeration to say this, **[00:16:24]** that we must free ourselves from this blackmail potential, **[00:16:27]** or free ourselves from being a target, **[00:16:31]** when President Trump or his administration **[00:16:37]** put my colleague Thierry Breton on a sanctions list, **[00:16:41]** a colleague from the Commission with whom we were negotiating the AI Act, **[00:16:46]** and who also signed all the digital legislation **[00:16:52]** from the last five years. **[00:16:55]** Breton really annoyed the Americans, **[00:16:58]** because he made some provocative statements before the American **[00:17:06]** presidential elections. He kind of lectured the Americans. **[00:17:12]** He said something, I don't remember exactly, **[00:17:15]** but it was something that triggered a reaction from America, **[00:17:19]** telling the French to mind their own business, not to interfere, **[00:17:24]** and to focus on ensuring freedom of speech in Europe. **[00:17:31]** That’s roughly how the exchange went over social media. **[00:17:37]** As a result, Mr. Trump put him on the sanctions list. **[00:17:41]** And the impact on such a person is incredible, **[00:17:44]** because he can't use, for example, Mastercard, **[00:17:47]** or he is basically blocked from many technologies **[00:17:50]** we use daily, and he is effectively cut off. **[00:17:55]** Big Brother obviously knows what he’s doing and what he controls. **[00:17:59]** It’s an incredible technological siege of that person, **[00:18:04]** which, if the Americans did it globally or to society at large, **[00:18:09]** would basically shut us down in essential life functions. **[00:18:15]** This means that Thierry’s case essentially shows how much the Americans hold us hostage in this area. **[00:18:19]** I have information that I was also supposed to be on that sanctions list, **[00:18:24]** but then there was some discussion **[00:18:30]** because I am already on the Russian sanctions list. **[00:18:44]** Maybe Americans would have a hard time explaining it, and maybe it would come down to the fact, **[00:18:50]** that I'm on both lists for the same reason, **[00:18:54]** because I simply oppose dictatorial methods, manipulation, and disinformation campaigns. **[00:19:02]** So I'm not on that list, but I have to say, **[00:19:06]** I don't plan to visit the US now. **[00:19:10]** I don't like unpleasant surprises. **[00:19:13]** So Europe is waking up now and wants to invest heavily. **[00:19:17]** It wants to invest in autonomy, including in the AI field. **[00:19:21]** We already see that the private sector is waking up too. **[00:19:27]** Data centers and hubs are being created to support small and medium-sized companies. **[00:19:36]** Various initiatives are emerging to have European social networks of our own. **[00:19:44]** I don't know if you've seen the plan to establish the W2TV network. **[00:19:49]** It's from Scandinavia and is already under massive attack from disinformers, **[00:19:56]** who claim that the European Commission funds it, which is not true. **[00:20:00]** It's a purely private project, and the principle of 'by Europe' is embedded in all these plans for technological emancipation. **[00:20:13]** That means in all technology investments, we will support only European innovative business, **[00:20:25]** not the American one, which could mean that American companies won't have access to public contracts. **[00:20:31]** These plans are now on the table, and maybe even this year, the first legislative measures will come, **[00:20:49]** which will either completely prevent or greatly restrict opportunities for non-European entities **[00:20:58]** to participate in public tenders. **[00:21:01]** So digital autonomy. I recently gave a lecture on technological sovereignty. **[00:21:10]** That's the new big slogan. Some call it just digital sovereignty, **[00:21:15]** but I talk about technological sovereignty because it covers many different things. **[00:21:20]** From releasing investments to regulations and so on. **[00:21:25]** So, you said, Honza, that I should talk for a long time, so how are we doing? **[00:21:32]** Here's a little slide where an old lady remembers the glorious past. **[00:21:42]** Where I met whom, so at the top I have a debate with Brad Smith, **[00:21:47]** who is the number two at Microsoft. An incredibly experienced lawyer, **[00:21:54]** who represents Microsoft in legal battles in America. **[00:21:58]** Even in the first battles that paved the way for the digital world's functioning. **[00:22:06]** America works differently; in Europe, we adopt regulations, but there, it happens by leaps, **[00:22:11]** where a court decides something and it becomes a precedent. **[00:22:15]** The system is really quite different, so Brad and I together **[00:22:21]** created the first ethical code for AI. That was back in 2018. **[00:22:28]** And the cooperation with Microsoft was really very good. **[00:22:33]** In the middle is Elon Musk. Well, I met him in Blechli, again in London. **[00:22:38]** And my PR people from Brussels really wanted me to take a photo with him. **[00:22:43]** But I didn't want to. And I was there with two colleagues from the cabinet, **[00:22:49]** who worked on technology issues, and they were the poor ones because the Brussels PR people **[00:22:54]** kept pressuring them to push me over to Musk. **[00:22:58]** at least I have the photo of me shaking his hand. **[00:23:01]** But that was already at the time when we had Twitter, aka X, in our sights, **[00:23:09]** when we saw that he didn't want to engage in content moderation, **[00:23:17]** when he didn't see anything wrong with denying the Holocaust, for example. **[00:23:24]** And that his value nihilism basically spread throughout the entire network, **[00:23:31]** which then truly became just a cesspool of hatred. **[00:23:35]** Especially after the Hamas attack, Twitter basically became a source space **[00:23:44]** for hatred that spilled over into the real world. **[00:23:49]** That means people were motivated, we don't have a word for it in Czech, **[00:23:54]** but encouragement, they were emboldened, actually initiated to, **[00:24:00]** go and scribble David's stars on the facades of Jewish citizens' homes **[00:24:08]** in France, Belgium, Britain. **[00:24:11]** And the link of hatred growing from digital to real life was absolutely clear. **[00:24:19]** And then I gave an interview to Politico and said that Elon Musk, **[00:24:24]** by refusing to address these issues, became a promoter of evil. **[00:24:29]** For a politician, working with terms like good, evil, and truth is a very thin line. **[00:24:37]** If it's a politician who cares about what comes out of their mouth. **[00:24:41]** We live in a somewhat shifted world today. **[00:24:45]** And I committed the act of saying he is a promoter of evil, **[00:24:50]** and Politico put it in the headline, and about two million people read it then. **[00:24:57]** And Elon replied to me on his network. **[00:25:03]** Věra Jourová is the epitome, basically I'll translate it into Czech, **[00:25:14]** she is the embodiment of all banal bureaucratic evil. **[00:25:19]** Banal evil is a term Hannah Arendt used **[00:25:25]** in relation to Eichmann as disgusting. **[00:25:29]** He wrote to me and one billion people read this disgusting message. **[00:25:35]** So we both exercised our right to freedom of speech, **[00:25:41]** but the impact, ladies and gentlemen, was incomparable. **[00:25:45]** Just to imagine how huge a concentration of power **[00:25:49]** we see now, how much influence these gentlemen, like Mr. Musk, have. **[00:25:55]** So I'm glad I don't have a photo with him. **[00:25:59]** An investigation is currently underway, or has already been concluded, **[00:26:05]** on the insufficient content moderation, and we'll see **[00:26:11]** what sanctions will be imposed on his network. **[00:26:15]** When the commission recently announced a fine, **[00:26:21]** I forgot the exact number, but it was a fairly high fine **[00:26:25]** for Musk's network, Marco Rubio, to my unpleasant surprise, **[00:26:39]** that it is an attack on all the American people. **[00:26:44]** And these politicians' outcries convince me again and again, **[00:26:51]** that we no longer live in a normal world and that something absolutely fundamental **[00:26:56]** has stopped working. And it's not just restraint. **[00:27:00]** It's actually the feeling that we are in power now and whoever opposes us, **[00:27:05]** is actually against all the people. **[00:27:10]** I heard this for years from Orbán in passing. **[00:27:14]** And I don't want to stray into other waters than the technological ones. **[00:27:19]** Below I have a photo with Zuckerberg from Brussels. **[00:27:24]** Can you enlarge it so I can look again at what we have there? **[00:27:29]** This slide is already under the chapter action and reaction. **[00:27:33]** That means the European Commission had strong demand **[00:27:38]** from member states to start regulating the digital world. **[00:27:43]** The legal competence was there. **[00:27:47]** And a very logical reasoning that we have all these threats, **[00:27:52]** privacy, security risks, hybrid war risks, **[00:27:57]** and we as member states don't have the strength **[00:28:03]** to come up with regulation that big digital platforms **[00:28:08]** would take seriously. And we heard this from Germany, **[00:28:13]** and from France, basically from the biggest states. **[00:28:16]** That means there was strong social demand, **[00:28:20]** demand from member states, objectively measured problems, **[00:28:24]** and the regulatory power of the European Commission. **[00:28:28]** That means we reacted to all these things, to all these risks, **[00:28:33]** to privacy threats there was a reaction in GDPR, security risks, **[00:28:38]** meaning child pornography, and here something was missed in the translation, **[00:28:44]** hate speech should be included. **[00:28:49]** And I am glad that AI is not smarter than people after all. **[00:28:56]** Extremism, racism, radicalization, and then we are already in the hot present **[00:29:02]** of hybrid wars. **[00:29:06]** We have been maturing for content regulation for several years, **[00:29:11]** and we all know the uproar around censorship and damage to the right **[00:29:17]** to freedom of speech, and actually there were three impulses in history. **[00:29:23]** The first were Islamist terrorist attacks in Western Europe, **[00:29:28]** so it was 2015-2016, when I had data from security services **[00:29:34]** and Europol that clearly showed that 90% of those Islamists **[00:29:40]** were activated on the internet. **[00:29:45]** The rest in family, let's say, or in prison by imams **[00:29:51]** who influence them there. **[00:29:55]** So terrorism in Europe was the first impulse. **[00:30:00]** The second impulse was fresh data on child pornography. **[00:30:07]** Amsterdam hub, Dutch Ministry of Justice desperate, **[00:30:12]** He said they simply chose the Netherlands, from where everything is distributed, **[00:30:18]** it's a huge business, we can't compete with them, do something about it, **[00:30:21]** because it happens through networks. **[00:30:23]** And the third impulse was, of course, covid, **[00:30:26]** when disinformation basically cost human lives. **[00:30:30]** So I would say our temperature rose to the point, **[00:30:36]** where we moved from gentleman's agreements with the big digital players, **[00:30:43]** to strict regulation. **[00:30:45]** This is how the response to security risks under point 2 was formed. **[00:30:51]** I don't want to delve too much into hybrid war risks, **[00:30:56]** because it's a very technical matter, but basically we upgraded **[00:31:00]** the so-called NIST2 directive, which sets very strict requirements for member states **[00:31:06]** to ensure cybersecurity. **[00:31:08]** We know that systems in Europe are interconnected and that the whole is only as strong **[00:31:13]** as its weakest link, so it is strictly required **[00:31:18]** that states invest and comply with the rules. **[00:31:23]** What we are going through makes society more vulnerable, **[00:31:31]** and I have listed everything we have experienced recently. **[00:31:37]** Absolutely unprecedented feelings that result from **[00:31:44]** what is objectively happening in geopolitics and society. **[00:31:48]** I don't know if you will share this feeling with me, **[00:31:52]** but ten years ago, when I felt I was in some misery, **[00:31:56]** bad mood, unpleasant things happening to me, **[00:32:00]** I knew I could help myself. **[00:32:03]** That I had the solution in my hands. **[00:32:05]** And now almost all of us have the feeling **[00:32:09]** that we basically can't breathe well, we feel threatened, anxious, **[00:32:15]** and child psychiatry can't keep up, by the way. **[00:32:20]** And this basically creates a demand for a strong hand, **[00:32:27]** for someone to whom I, as a citizen, as a voter, **[00:32:32]** I deliberately say not as a consumer, **[00:32:36]** but as a citizen, can say, take it into your hands, do it, **[00:32:41]** solve it and solve it quickly and preferably without us, **[00:32:47]** because we don't have the strength or even know what to do with it. **[00:32:51]** This is simply a demand for autocracy. **[00:32:54]** And the 'do it for us' instead of 'do it with us' **[00:32:58]** is basically the will of society, **[00:33:03]** to step back from the democratic principle, **[00:33:07]** that people decide together and basically hand over those solutions **[00:33:13]** into the hands of a few individuals. **[00:33:17]** This correlates with the belief of many European statesmen, **[00:33:23]** who win elections, that the winner takes all, **[00:33:28]** and that is the current reality in the Czech Republic, because after the elections, **[00:33:33]** which basically resulted from the social demand **[00:33:39]** bring the solution quickly and without us, **[00:33:42]** after such elections, the ruler says, **[00:33:46]** alright, to solve this quickly and satisfy the people, **[00:33:52]** I have to disconnect what I call the democratic cruise control. **[00:33:58]** All the brakes and everything that complicates governance, **[00:34:02]** everything that is inconvenient and disrupts the work, **[00:34:06]** and on that list are exactly the same things, whether in Russia, **[00:34:11]** Hungary, Slovakia, and now we see the beginning in the Czech Republic, **[00:34:16]** and don’t be mistaken, Western Europe also has these tendencies. **[00:34:21]** First in line are the judiciary, media, academic freedoms, **[00:34:26]** state administration, professional and civil society. **[00:34:33]** Today we see moves to restrict almost all of these, **[00:34:38]** to limit all these forces that we should keep **[00:34:46]** in good shape in a democracy. **[00:34:49]** And cumulatively, if someone manages to do all this, **[00:34:55]** which was achieved mainly by Putin, and then his imitator Orbán, **[00:35:01]** then democracy is no longer democracy. **[00:35:04]** Orbán spoke of illiberal democracy, but I boldly said, **[00:35:13]** like a sick democracy. Then he repeatedly called for my removal, **[00:35:17]** because it offended him to the core. Now they talk about hybrid democracy, **[00:35:22]** but in my opinion, all five sectors **[00:35:32]** that should remain independent of politics in a democracy, **[00:35:36]** he has either fenced off or destroyed. **[00:35:41]** Judiciary, media, academic freedoms, state administration, **[00:35:48]** and basically civil society as well. **[00:35:53]** And I’m surprised when I hear some Czech government politicians, **[00:35:59]** that they are satisfied with just copying these methods, not coming up with anything new. **[00:36:07]** And actually, I’m quite glad about that, because they could invent **[00:36:11]** maybe even faster ways to demolish everything independent, **[00:36:18]** that stands in the way of their governance. **[00:36:21]** And now I completely lost track of that slide. **[00:36:25]** Ground for populists, we promise everything. **[00:36:28]** Populism is dangerous, it has two traits. **[00:36:33]** We do what the majority wants and we stir hatred against the elites. **[00:36:39]** I would say that in our country, the second factor is still not fully visible, **[00:36:44]** but the first one is running at full speed here. **[00:36:48]** And I'll move on. **[00:36:52]** Do you want to ask something in this context? **[00:36:56]** We can, we can. **[00:36:59]** So, what to do? **[00:37:02]** I actually realized that we need to be aware of three things. **[00:37:08]** That democracy is not a perpetuum mobile, **[00:37:12]** that it simply isn't guaranteed, **[00:37:15]** it would be guaranteed if people wanted it, **[00:37:18]** if they saw that it works, which is the case in Scandinavia. **[00:37:22]** The Scandinavians figured out that it's a good system, **[00:37:26]** they have full trust in it. **[00:37:29]** A system where economic prosperity and security are guaranteed. **[00:37:33]** Democrats don't fight each other. **[00:37:36]** By the way. **[00:37:38]** Secondly, as I just said, people have to want it. **[00:37:42]** And in this case, I sometimes remember Jakeš's speech, **[00:37:47]** the substitute, how he said, not us, people have to want it. **[00:37:54]** Or how he put it there. **[00:37:57]** And I sometimes hear this now from democrats, that they want this, **[00:38:03]** for people to demand it, but the democrats who basically **[00:38:08]** don't offer good solutions to those people. **[00:38:12]** So for people to want it, it has to be deserved. **[00:38:19]** And now it's necessary to basically engage in plans for innovations **[00:38:25]** including electoral systems and so on. **[00:38:31]** I have a few bullet points here, which are more like cries **[00:38:38]** or characteristics of where we are and what we might experience. **[00:38:46]** In my opinion, free and fair elections are an important parameter, **[00:38:51]** but not the only one. To ensure **[00:38:55]** that elections maintain or lead to strengthening democracy **[00:39:01]** or at least result from a quality and stable democracy, **[00:39:05]** we need informed citizens. **[00:39:10]** And in the age of digital manipulation and the ease **[00:39:17]** of basically brainwashing today, even with intense pressure **[00:39:22]** from artificial intelligence, this is not so obvious. **[00:39:25]** An informed citizen. That's basically something **[00:39:29]** we need to work on more. **[00:39:33]** Not a citizen under propaganda pressure. **[00:39:37]** When I talk about an informed citizen, **[00:39:40]** I mean someone who cares about facts **[00:39:43]** and who forms their own autonomous opinion. **[00:39:46]** So the moment it becomes impossible to guarantee, **[00:39:49]** that an individual voter can form **[00:39:52]** their own autonomous opinion, **[00:39:55]** that will also be dangerous for democracy. **[00:39:58]** And we know we are not far from that... **[00:40:00]** in this information chaos and the possibilities of manipulation. **[00:40:05]** Election campaigns are increasingly becoming competitions of machines, robots, not people. **[00:40:13]** Péter Máďar won the elections in Hungary not only because he has brilliantly managed social networks, **[00:40:19]** but also because he traveled through Hungary village by village. **[00:40:23]** He visited some places twice, people appreciated that and voted for him. **[00:40:28]** So real human competition still has huge significance in the digital age **[00:40:33]** or in today's world. **[00:40:38]** We experience many forms of manipulation, some we know about, many we do not yet. **[00:40:45]** I am very angry that the public did not learn what happened in Romania. **[00:40:52]** We know what happened with Cambridge Analytica. **[00:40:55]** Remember that scandal of reading people's preferences and feeding them **[00:41:02]** messages or offers they wanted to hear into their computers, which influenced them. **[00:41:09]** If I know what someone likes to read, eat, or who they sleep with, **[00:41:15]** I can tailor what they want to read and what will influence their choice. **[00:41:24]** But what happened in Romania was an upgrade of the same thing, **[00:41:29]** where artificial intelligence was activated to its full extent, **[00:41:36]** and I still lack investigation results. **[00:41:40]** Only the European Commission can look into the TikTok algorithm. **[00:41:44]** I expected public results before the Hungarian elections, **[00:41:49]** so we would know how the manipulation technically works, **[00:41:53]** but we learned nothing. **[00:41:56]** Many forms of manipulation, the winner takes all, I talked about that, **[00:42:01]** the democratic cruise control, and at the same time we need to realize, **[00:42:08]** that if someone wants to dismantle democracy and has it well planned, **[00:42:15]** not like the current Minister of Culture, who would do it in one big visible move, **[00:42:22]** but if someone wants to do it thoroughly and basically irreversibly, **[00:42:28]** they do it through small, sometimes technical changes in laws, **[00:42:32]** in procedural rules, and so on. **[00:42:35]** This is well described by the STEM agency, which came up with material **[00:42:45]** on ways to dismantle democracy, and these are really almost invisible small steps. **[00:42:54]** Viktor Orbán applied this slowly but surely. **[00:43:01]** Prime Minister Fico wanted to apply it in Slovakia. **[00:43:05]** What Orbán did in ten years, Fico wanted to do in one year. **[00:43:10]** And of course, society reacted. **[00:43:15]** Digitalization of political campaigns. **[00:43:18]** I deleted Facebook, then Twitter, **[00:43:22]** now maybe I'm on Instagram. **[00:43:25]** Some people deal with it, but I don't want to know anything about it. **[00:43:29]** And a smart person told me, so you deleted Facebook, **[00:43:33]** well, as a politician, you're dead. **[00:43:36]** So yes, I declare it: as a politician, I am dead, and I feel great. **[00:43:41]** I don't need to show anyone an Easter lamb **[00:43:45]** or dance in various costumes and so on. **[00:43:51]** I probably won't want to learn it anymore, **[00:43:54]** because this way of political campaigning seems to me **[00:43:58]** to demean the voters. **[00:44:02]** I find it embarrassing for their sake. **[00:44:07]** The rising power of political parties **[00:44:11]** and the growing influence of influencers. **[00:44:14]** Filip Turek is a perfect example of this. **[00:44:17]** A person without political experience or background, **[00:44:20]** but he did it through social networks, **[00:44:23]** and you see where he is today and to what extent. **[00:44:27]** Basically, this individual is shaking up the entire political scene. **[00:44:32]** I emphasize, he is not shaking the president. **[00:44:36]** I am an advisor to the president and I know **[00:44:39]** that for the president, neither Filip Turek **[00:44:42]** nor Petr Macínka are partners, let alone rivals. **[00:44:46]** That's a completely different weight category, **[00:44:49]** and these issues must be addressed at the president-prime minister level. **[00:44:55]** Many media outlets are generally weakening, **[00:44:59]** because they lost advertising money, **[00:45:04]** which went to Google and other search engines, **[00:45:10]** so we already have so-called media deserts in parts of Europe. **[00:45:14]** They have more in America, **[00:45:17]** it must be said the situation there is even worse, **[00:45:20]** but in the United States. **[00:45:23]** Here, we watch the decline of the independent media sphere. **[00:45:31]** I could talk at length about public service media. **[00:45:36]** I was so troubled by how media are dying in Europe, **[00:45:41]** that I proposed the European Act on Media Freedom. **[00:45:44]** No one believed it would succeed. **[00:45:48]** There was huge resistance from member states. **[00:45:54]** Incredible pressure from Germany, **[00:45:57]** to stop, because their media market works, **[00:46:00]** and from France and Italy, **[00:46:03]** to stop when I want to address the situation in Hungary, **[00:46:06]** I don't have to come up with a regulation, **[00:46:09]** that applies across all of Europe. **[00:46:12]** And I was fascinated by the arrogance, **[00:46:15]** with which these people were convinced, **[00:46:18]** that it’s possible for someone to win elections, **[00:46:21]** who decides to simply tame public media **[00:46:25]** and pay off the media scene. **[00:46:28]** And in France, they have an oligarch, **[00:46:31]** named Bolloré, **[00:46:34]** a man who made money from producing **[00:46:37]** and distributing cement, **[00:46:40]** and earned so much that he looked around, **[00:46:43]** wondering what to do next and started buying media **[00:46:46]** and basically created a fairly powerful cartel, **[00:46:49]** so practically no one can avoid it, **[00:46:52]** if the conditions allow it. **[00:46:55]** And if the public allows it, **[00:46:58]** which is the current situation in the Czech Republic, **[00:47:01]** it's interesting to watch how the public will react **[00:47:04]** to the actual destruction **[00:47:07]** of quality public news. **[00:47:10]** Because Cinderella and Stardance, **[00:47:14]** ladies and gentlemen, those will remain. **[00:47:17]** This is about regional news. **[00:47:20]** Not even sports is at stake, that will stay too, **[00:47:23]** because our voters want it, **[00:47:26]** but this is about something completely different. **[00:47:29]** Other challenges. **[00:47:32]** This is about trust or distrust. **[00:47:35]** In some democracies, more than 40% of people say, **[00:47:38]** that democracy doesn't work for us, **[00:47:41]** it gives us nothing, come up with something better, **[00:47:44]** our voice isn't heard anyway, **[00:47:47]** so why bother. **[00:47:56]** Passive DAF is a salvation for autocrats. **[00:47:59]** Passive DAF is easy to manipulate. **[00:48:02]** What are the possibilities for remedy? **[00:48:05]** As I said, the Scandinavian model, **[00:48:08]** there people are hungry for facts **[00:48:11]** and very demanding of their politicians, **[00:48:14]** expecting answers. **[00:48:17]** The interaction between the demanding citizen **[00:48:20]** and the politician is very sharp, **[00:48:23]** very intense, **[00:48:26]** and politicians don’t dare to do things **[00:48:29]** that are common elsewhere, **[00:48:32]** like shamelessly lying to people **[00:48:36]** and not being accountable. **[00:48:39]** I sometimes struggle with English and Czech, **[00:48:42]** the English word accountability, **[00:48:45]** which means being held accountable, **[00:48:48]** and we don’t really have **[00:48:51]** an exact equivalent in Czech **[00:48:54]** or many other languages. **[00:48:57]** But a demanding, informed citizen **[00:49:00]** who makes sure their voice is heard, **[00:49:03]** that is exactly **[00:49:06]** the fundamental building block **[00:49:09]** for maintaining democracy even in the digital age. **[00:49:12]** Top-down communication. **[00:49:15]** Sometimes I feel politicians think **[00:49:18]** people are really stupid **[00:49:21]** and serve them unbelievable things, **[00:49:24]** which can be fact-checked, **[00:49:27]** but who cares. **[00:49:30]** When governments really try **[00:49:33]** to uphold democracy, I always advise, **[00:49:36]** please, trust must be mutual, **[00:49:39]** you expect trust from people, **[00:49:42]** but it must also work top down, **[00:49:45]** and I have absolutely no sympathy **[00:49:48]** for politicians who lose elections **[00:49:51]** by feeding people lies, **[00:49:54]** about the achievements they have made, **[00:49:57]** everything they taught them. **[00:50:00]** They look to the past and completely fail to understand that this era is about uncertainties of the future. **[00:50:08]** And that politicians still haven't understood the democrats, some would say liberals, but I am a liberal, **[00:50:17]** so I don't want to bring my political views in here too much. **[00:50:23]** Anyway, the moment when politicians can't clearly and simply tell people **[00:50:31]** what they are preparing for them in a week, a month, a year. **[00:50:36]** Even if it's a month, 'I can't manage it yet, but I'm working on it and it will be this and that.' **[00:50:43]** Really so that people understand it, I think trust on the other side can be maintained. **[00:50:51]** Social networks, opportunities and threats. I never claimed that social networks are to blame for all the misery **[00:50:59]** we feel and experience in society. They don't cause it, but they amplify it. **[00:51:08]** The feeling of anxiety. And I am convinced that social networks still show a worse mirror, **[00:51:18]** they show us a worse image than reality. The bad is still more heard and seen, and that of course **[00:51:30]** in turn affects the atmosphere in society. It's interesting that already in the 90s several American sociologists **[00:51:39]** coined the term cognitive surplus, when they predicted the building of this type of networks, **[00:51:54]** we will learn things about ourselves that we didn't know before. It will be like a new report about ourselves **[00:52:06]** and it will train society, it will influence society. This is exactly what's happening. **[00:52:15]** Ladies and gentlemen, my dad always said, well, it was in connection with a hangover, **[00:52:21]** 'fix what you broke,' and I think many politicians don't realize this either, **[00:52:29]** that if their opponents, adversaries, enemies use social networks to build a political **[00:52:39]** or electoral base, then they simply have to do it too. The question is, and I was often asked this **[00:52:48]** by prime ministers and ministers, to what extent can democrats afford to get dirty. **[00:52:56]** To what extent. Can they shout, insult, because without shouting, insulting, and shocking education, **[00:53:04]** they basically won't get into people's awareness. So this is obviously up to each of them **[00:53:10]** to set that line. The moment everyone insults and uses knockouts, **[00:53:16]** the political scene will totally lose credibility. People's trust will go down. **[00:53:23]** Public service media. I basically included it as a special type of protection **[00:53:28]** in the media freedom regulation because I am convinced **[00:53:35]** that in every member state of the Union there should be public service media **[00:53:41]** as a protected, I would say, golden grail or something that deserves privileged protection **[00:53:49]** in the form of sufficient and predictable funding and transparent processes, **[00:53:55]** which lead to appointing quality people to media councils and management. **[00:54:06]** If you ask how I defined in that regulation what a quality person is, **[00:54:10]** of course it's not there. It can't be done at all. But I tried to include a rule **[00:54:19]** or rules that should protect public service media from attacks by politicians. **[00:54:28]** Whether the regulation will have teeth and whether it will lead to some correction, **[00:54:33]** we might just verify in the Czech Republic. Anyway, this regulation was meant to apply **[00:54:40]** or work more as a deterrent, as prevention, rather than as a sanction machine. **[00:54:50]** If we imagine the information scene, here we have public service media, **[00:54:56]** which, as I said, should be as strong as possible, platforms and independent media, **[00:55:01]** which unfortunately now have a very difficult situation and are fighting for survival. **[00:55:08]** When we imagine crisis situations where people need to rely **[00:55:14]** on some verified sources of information, typically during floods, they turn to platforms **[00:55:25]** where they expect someone to inform them. But this is, of course, a mistaken assumption. **[00:55:33]** It was interesting to observe how platforms, or rather these information sources, **[00:55:39]** behaved in Spain and the Czech Republic during floods. The floods happened around the same time. **[00:55:45]** In both cases, a disinformation machine quickly kicked in, **[00:55:50]** which in the Czech Republic convinced people that there would be no flood. **[00:55:55]** In Spain, it was already clear that a flood would happen, **[00:56:00]** but the disinformation campaign was aimed against the regional government **[00:56:06]** and basically attacked the regional government's ability to do anything for the people, **[00:56:11]** causing even more panic and chaos. In both cases, it cost human lives. That means, in a country where... **[00:56:16]** And now platforms have the obligation under the Digital Services Act to activate **[00:56:22]** the so-called crisis protocol in moments when a disaster is approaching or ongoing. **[00:56:27]** We already anticipated that people would become increasingly dependent on **[00:56:35]** what they see on these networks and that these networks should provide this public service. **[00:56:40]** What should it look like? To give space that the user sees first, **[00:56:50]** to trusted news. This means there is a clear line **[00:56:57]** between the platform and the public media in that country. It is understandable. **[00:57:03]** So we did not push legislation to turn platforms into public media. **[00:57:10]** No, we wanted them to provide space and for it to be fast. **[00:57:17]** By the way, the shooting at the Faculty of Philosophy was a terrible tragedy. **[00:57:23]** I spent a year at Charles University and I can tell you it still lives with us, **[00:57:30]** and we were not directly affected. When it started, **[00:57:35]** I immediately contacted Facebook and others to respond immediately **[00:57:43]** and block access to those images from outside, **[00:57:51]** to protect the people trying to save their lives. The response was immediate. **[00:57:57]** It shows that technologically they can do something crucial immediately. **[00:58:03]** Whereas when recordings of the New Zealand shooting circulated online, **[00:58:11]** the perpetrator streamed live as he shot people, **[00:58:19]** it took Facebook 17 minutes to remove it. But in the Prague case, **[00:58:24]** it was basically within a minute or two. Of course, once something circulates, **[00:58:31]** it's hard to catch it all. But the Prague response was immediate. **[00:58:37]** So there's no need to give up on platforms. People gather information from there. **[00:58:43]** The young generation takes TikTok as their only source of information in a very high percentage. **[00:58:53]** So the commission now, in my opinion, must finalize the investigation of TikTok for harming children **[00:59:02]** from various perspectives, and in my view, there will be influence on children and young people **[00:59:10]** just by the fact that they are in that rabbit hole, spending 6-7 hours a day. **[00:59:21]** And we saw political manipulation on TikTok aimed at the young generation **[00:59:26]** in France and Germany before the European elections. It was happening on a large scale. **[00:59:39]** The popularity of AFD in Germany is heavily pumped into young people precisely through TikTok. **[00:59:46]** We know that Elon Musk did an interview with Mrs. Weidel, the chairwoman of AFD. **[00:59:52]** Nobody probably liked it, but no one intervened. Imagine if... **[01:00:00]** if someone from Europe came to America and interfered in elections this way. **[01:00:06]** That's exactly what the Americans are doing to us here. **[01:00:09]** I was thinking, he did a clear interview, it would be more interesting what he ordered the X algorithm, **[01:00:20]** what it should bring to the surface, what people should read first, what kind of manipulation is done through the algorithm. **[01:00:26]** Again, we didn't find out. **[01:00:29]** I still have 19 seconds. **[01:00:34]** Innovation. **[01:00:36]** That can be a subject of debate, the end of events is not happening. **[01:00:42]** Demographics and aging voters are doing wonders with election results. **[01:00:49]** And I just think it's time to talk about **[01:00:54]** how we set the age limit at the start **[01:01:00]** and whether it's still bearable for the young generation to go somewhere with a paper and drop it somewhere. **[01:01:09]** These are heretical thoughts. Estonians warned against e-voting, **[01:01:14]** that it can be abused, but I think it's time to make **[01:01:21]** democracy and the possibility to influence social affairs more attractive for young people. **[01:01:27]** That we should simply deal with this more. **[01:01:31]** Short memory, war propaganda, this is a longer story. **[01:01:37]** Here I am already describing what innovations could look like. **[01:01:43]** I am currently working on a European project where we will try in the spring of next year **[01:01:48]** to come up with a series of recommendations on how to innovate the system. **[01:01:54]** I pay a lot of attention to having young people on the team, **[01:01:58]** who have gone through the digital industry and know how it works. **[01:02:05]** Limit of 16 years, well, that's probably how I see it. **[01:02:10]** Warnings against totalitarian regimes. **[01:02:13]** We have huge gaps, I think especially **[01:02:20]** at the high school education level, **[01:02:27]** that the education system should basically try to explain to people **[01:02:35]** that the last century was full of blood and that it started with words **[01:02:43]** and manipulation. **[01:02:46]** Maybe it's not a bad idea to talk with young people about **[01:02:50]** what it would be like if Gables had access to Facebook, **[01:02:55]** if Mengele could use AI to measure whether **[01:02:58]** your nose is the right size. **[01:03:03]** These are apocalyptic visions, but not completely unrealistic, **[01:03:09]** because people like Gables and Mengele obviously still live **[01:03:14]** and claim to rule in many parts of the world. **[01:03:22]** So for some, this sounds like hysteria or alarmism, **[01:03:29]** But really, if we don't learn, we might repeat it. **[01:03:38]** Well, Madeleine Albright wrote a book called Fascism **[01:03:42]** and her students at Georgetown University in Washington **[01:03:48]** asked her, 'Professor, why are you writing about something that happened long ago?' **[01:03:56]** That's in the past. **[01:03:57]** And she told me how shocked she was, **[01:04:00]** that these educated young people didn't understand at all **[01:04:04]** that the underlying conditions still exist and it could ignite again at any time. **[01:04:10]** And in that book, she describes the parameters of a situation **[01:04:16]** that could spark a new wave of fascist enlightenment. **[01:04:21]** I recently listened to a radio report from the Brno city council **[01:04:26]** before that Sudeten German meeting or whatever it was. **[01:04:32]** And I can tell you, just hearing those voices and that hatred, **[01:04:39]** I felt like those people would gladly kill those other people, **[01:04:45]** often innocent women and children, again. **[01:04:51]** This is a terrible realization, that it's so easy to stir up again **[01:04:57]** and activate the worst sides of human nature. **[01:05:03]** So Madeleine Albright was terrified by this, and of course she was **[01:05:09]** living history, because she had to flee both totalitarian regimes in her life. **[01:05:14]** First fascism, then communism. **[01:05:18]** So she was a great role model for me, and I also had the huge opportunity **[01:05:25]** and honor to talk about these things. **[01:05:28]** She was one of those who opened doors for me wherever I went in the world. **[01:05:33]** I had three gatekeepers or door openers: Madeleine Albright, **[01:05:38]** Václav Havel, and Kalle Schwarzenberg, and I am grateful to them. **[01:05:42]** They are people we desperately need right now. **[01:05:46]** Thank you. **[01:05:56]** Well, I'm coming to you now. **[01:06:02]** Will you be standing? **[01:06:03]** Let's sit down. **[01:06:07]** I want to see that acrobatics you mentioned. **[01:06:11]** I always miss part of it. **[01:06:16]** That can't happen to you, not this. **[01:06:19]** Thank you very much for the talk. **[01:06:24]** I'm actually thinking, because there are obviously tons of questions. **[01:06:32]** So try to describe your vision of digital democracy. **[01:06:37]** That's the question you're afraid of. **[01:06:39]** Because I didn't stay silent. **[01:06:40]** So try it. **[01:06:41]** I think I talked about it during the lecture, **[01:06:46]** that we have to stop lamenting that it's here, **[01:06:51]** but basically adapt. **[01:06:53]** The whole digital revolution is a tough test for our adaptation communities. **[01:07:01]** Both for individuals and for society as a whole. **[01:07:05]** But we have to try, and basically I think, **[01:07:10]** it would also help if part of society calmed down in the sense that **[01:07:16]** if someone isn't fully digital and doesn't have an app for everything, **[01:07:24]** they won't just be thrown into the gutter and perish without help. **[01:07:30]** I know what I'm talking about. **[01:07:32]** Ladies and gentlemen, I joined the commission in 2014. **[01:07:38]** It was already underway, but I managed to cope with it. **[01:07:44]** And then I had ten years of full service for everything. **[01:07:49]** I had an office in the commission, my own people who took care of my tickets and accommodation, **[01:07:56]** because I traveled a lot, and basically they wrote emails for me. **[01:08:04]** I had such support that after ten years it threw me out, **[01:08:09]** like a whale stranded in Germany, just on dry land. **[01:08:12]** You do it for me. **[01:08:13]** What? **[01:08:13]** You do it for me. **[01:08:13]** I don't know. **[01:08:14]** You are named after me too. **[01:08:15]** And she already swam away, so I haven't swum away yet either. **[01:08:20]** Because for me, when they say, install the app, I faint. **[01:08:29]** When a private company tells me that, **[01:08:32]** I can say, I'll skip your app and go somewhere else, **[01:08:36]** where they won't require it from me, or to a restaurant **[01:08:39]** where they give me a menu in the form of a barcode. **[01:08:42]** I leave. **[01:08:44]** There I don't faint, I leave. **[01:08:46]** The moment the state does this to me **[01:08:51]** and requires me as a citizen **[01:08:56]** to install an app to access some public service, **[01:09:03]** I'll go tie myself to a tree in front of the government office. **[01:09:08]** Because I think it's unconstitutional **[01:09:10]** and basically something that contributes to societal anxiety. **[01:09:16]** We have a strategy in the Union called Digital Europe, **[01:09:21]** I think, until 2030. **[01:09:25]** And it says that by 2030, 70% of citizens **[01:09:31]** should be digitally capable of handling everything. **[01:09:35]** And I can tell you it was very unfashionable, **[01:09:40]** when I kept raising the question of what we would do with those 30%. **[01:09:45]** I already suspected that I would be among that 30%, **[01:09:49]** like a whale on dry land. **[01:09:51]** So I think digitalizing what can be, **[01:09:57]** what benefits society, **[01:10:00]** social cohesion, but not overdoing it, because human adaptation to technological systems **[01:10:08]** simply takes longer than a year or two. **[01:10:12]** This also partly explains the tension in society, that people are being asked. **[01:10:17]** This morning I was in a tight spot somewhere again, I don't remember, it doesn't matter. **[01:10:23]** I have many funny stories about how hard it is to live on dry land. **[01:10:27]** What I actually take away is the democratic cruise control you mentioned. **[01:10:33]** That's basically the braking, which goes totally against everything **[01:10:39]** that the exponential society is trying to solve right now. **[01:10:43]** There are a lot of questions, for example about strengthened privacy rights, **[01:10:49]** you mean the EU, checks, controls, and so on, meaning regulation and all these things. **[01:10:54]** Try to talk a bit more about that, why, how do you see it? **[01:10:58]** You said as a cultural anthropologist that it was always interesting for you to observe **[01:11:02]** how individual nations react and so on. **[01:11:06]** Two things. By democratic cruise control, I mean that processes are slow, **[01:11:12]** when a law is passed in a democracy, it has to be consulted by many. **[01:11:17]** There is a demand for public oversight, yes, that's what I meant. **[01:11:22]** And of course, exceptional states exist so that even in a democracy, **[01:11:30]** decisions can be made quickly when needed, for security reasons, yes. **[01:11:35]** But in normal situations, the cruise control works so that society doesn't experience shocks **[01:11:42]** and surprises. That's what the legislative process is for, which has its rules **[01:11:48]** and space for the public to express their opinions. **[01:11:52]** Checks and controls are a good example of a fundamental conflict between ensuring **[01:12:00]** individual privacy protection and publicly demanded security, yes. **[01:12:06]** Those were painful debates, where I naturally defended the side **[01:12:12]** of privacy protection, and my colleague Švetka Ilze Johanson came with **[01:12:20]** really terrible statistics about how child pornography **[01:12:26]** and pedophile communication are flourishing on the internet. She was very convincing, and now **[01:12:34]** our opinions and positions were mixed, and the commission finally came out with some, I don't remember exactly, **[01:12:42]** but some compromise proposal, where the privacy of those in private conversations was preserved, **[01:12:48]** and basically only in cases of significant suspicion **[01:12:56]** could it be breached, but only with a prosecutor's or judge's decision in some states. **[01:13:03]** By the way, this is something that has long worked as a breach of postal secrecy in criminal cases as well. **[01:13:11]** So here it was carefully weighed on a scale how far the state or the overseer could go without **[01:13:18]** extremely violating the right to privacy. This is a terrible dilemma. **[01:13:32]** It seems to me that it has to do with how many different entities are involved with different opinions, **[01:13:38]** so finding a good solution, a consensus, must be incredibly complicated. **[01:13:43]** Especially in the European Union, where we can't just slam the table and say, this is the way, **[01:13:49]** and there are really many different histories involved. So maybe try to talk about these **[01:13:56]** pharmaceutical balances. What actually happens there and how does it work? **[01:14:00]** Yes, when we design legislation, there are 27 of us sitting around the table. **[01:14:05]** Hrzula is there, and there are 26 other commissioners. Each of us has our own portfolio **[01:14:11]** and we have to defend the interests of that sector. The principle and my role was basically to protect the right **[01:14:23]** to privacy, while my Swedish colleague was responsible for everything that the interior ministry handles here. **[01:14:31]** Security, including, I think, cyber security was handled by someone else. **[01:14:38]** The commissioners' debate follows about six months of expert discussions. **[01:14:49]** I didn't get some rushed draft, something that wasn't discussed, **[01:14:56]** but I got it with all the pros and cons. The final decision was up to us, **[01:15:03]** those sitting around the table. If I remember correctly, we sent it further into the process **[01:15:09]** with really strong security safeguards so it couldn't be abused, **[01:15:15]** basically no backdoor into private conversations. I know there were ideas **[01:15:23]** to limit the number of people in chats or groups. **[01:15:32]** I think that ultimately didn't pass. Then it goes into the legislative process, **[01:15:38]** where in the European Parliament, the rapporteurs and shadow reporters work intensively on it, **[01:15:43]** meaning five or six people and their expert teams. **[01:15:49]** On the other side are the member states, bringing their national perspectives. **[01:15:57]** This is a melting pot that plays with the original Commission proposal, **[01:16:03]** sometimes so much that you can't recognize what was at the start. **[01:16:07]** I don't know the end, I stopped following it, but I know **[01:16:11]** the battle over how much access to allow lasted until the very end, **[01:16:20]** and the final vote was quite heated. **[01:16:25]** The question often comes up, and I hear it a lot, **[01:16:30]** why should we follow regulations when somewhere else in the world they don't, **[01:16:33]** so they will be ahead of us and have an advantage? What would you say to that? **[01:16:38]** Because that advantage might be short-term, but in the long run, **[01:16:41]** it's actually very harmful to let the jungle grow over our heads. **[01:16:45]** As Europeans, we want it differently. **[01:16:51]** What concrete steps can be taken to reduce technological dependence on the USA? **[01:16:54]** Well, three things. Sufficient investment in innovation. **[01:16:58]** When I saw the new EU budget, it doesn't even come close, **[01:17:04]** so the hope is to unlock investor optimism and basically boost **[01:17:09]** the European digital innovation sphere. The French have big plans and dominance there, **[01:17:18]** but many other countries as well. I would say I see a big gap **[01:17:25]** between Western and especially Northwestern Europe and the East. **[01:17:40]** This won't do us any good, because even the European funds, 28+, **[01:17:46]** will heavily support innovation projects and innovative industries, **[01:17:51]** or the digital industry, which should help Europe break free from that dependency. **[01:17:57]** And I don't see many players from Central and Eastern Europe **[01:18:01]** who could get involved. But to cut it short. **[01:18:05]** Investments, basically some initial public money, **[01:18:12]** which should be in European and national budgets plus the private sector. **[01:18:19]** Secondly, building infrastructure from public funds, **[01:18:23]** meaning data centers, clouds, the whole data management sphere. **[01:18:34]** I think this also includes a serious consideration of whether **[01:18:39]** we can afford to let private data be transferred **[01:18:43]** on such a massive scale across the Atlantic. **[01:18:47]** Every second, a huge stream of private data flows to the United States. **[01:18:54]** And I think this is already a security risk in this situation. **[01:19:02]** And the third thing is talent—bringing people to Europe who work worldwide **[01:19:08]** in the field of innovation. **[01:19:11]** There is currently some agreement with India on this, **[01:19:14]** that European structures, mainly research, **[01:19:20]** should open more opportunities for students from India to come to Europe. **[01:19:25]** So work is being done on many different fronts. **[01:19:30]** And it's taken seriously because this is about survival. **[01:19:35]** I keep thinking of many things, but just now I heard something crazy, **[01:19:41]** that Anthropic didn't agree to the United States' game, **[01:19:45]** so what if the European Union bought Anthropic? **[01:19:48]** I really enjoyed this debate here. **[01:19:54]** Some name Amed, and here for example Anthropic. **[01:20:00]** Amody. **[01:20:02]** Amody. **[01:20:04]** But it has calmed down again. **[01:20:06]** I think, **[01:20:08]** I read the day before yesterday that there was a meeting **[01:20:10]** with the chief of staff of Mr. Trump, **[01:20:12]** and they agreed on something, **[01:20:14]** that they would stop **[01:20:16]** blacklisting him and Anthropic **[01:20:18]** would calm down again **[01:20:20]** and join **[01:20:22]** the group **[01:20:24]** of disciplined developers. **[01:20:26]** Then it occurs to me, when we were talking **[01:20:28]** about that India. But it's a shame, I would have liked it. **[01:20:30]** Yeah, yeah, yeah, I also liked the idea when I heard it, **[01:20:32]** it opened my eyes. **[01:20:34]** When we talked about that India **[01:20:36]** and actually about migration **[01:20:38]** and what it actually causes here now **[01:20:40]** and how it is actually with us **[01:20:42]** in Europe, I mean, as a polarized topic, **[01:20:44]** so what to do about it, **[01:20:46]** that we actually need **[01:20:48]** to bring the brains here, **[01:20:50]** how to approach this, **[01:20:52]** when the, **[01:20:54]** again the narrative is that, **[01:20:56]** we actually don't want anyone here, **[01:20:58]** we don't need anyone, they take our jobs **[01:21:00]** from our people and so on. **[01:21:02]** But those are two different things. **[01:21:04]** Migration that no one wants here, **[01:21:06]** is illegal migration and migration of people **[01:21:08]** who want to come **[01:21:10]** to earn money **[01:21:12]** in unskilled jobs. **[01:21:14]** But that's hard to explain **[01:21:16]** in two-second news clips. **[01:21:18]** Okay, now I needed ten seconds for that, **[01:21:20]** yeah, but **[01:21:22]** there is a system in Europe, **[01:21:24]** I think it's called the blue card, **[01:21:26]** where indeed **[01:21:28]** member states know about it, **[01:21:30]** they often have it in their programs, **[01:21:32]** to create **[01:21:34]** various incentives **[01:21:36]** for people from research. **[01:21:38]** We even did some kind of call at Charles **[01:21:40]** University **[01:21:42]** teaching American, **[01:21:44]** or not to universities, but **[01:21:46]** more or less to university graduates, **[01:21:48]** those who are in America clearly don't want **[01:21:50]** to come back, that they'll be better off here. **[01:21:52]** Jesus, what did I just say. **[01:21:54]** They will be fine here. **[01:21:58]** And not many of them **[01:22:00]** have come yet, yeah, but **[01:22:02]** what's needed here is **[01:22:04]** for the academic sphere **[01:22:06]** and the private **[01:22:08]** research sector, or **[01:22:10]** those who are **[01:22:12]** project leaders, **[01:22:14]** where you have the bridge **[01:22:16]** from research to production, **[01:22:18]** to actively try **[01:22:20]** to bring **[01:22:22]** people from countries like **[01:22:24]** India into their teams. No one **[01:22:26]** will do this for them **[01:22:28]** top-down on a broad scale. **[01:22:30]** This requires a targeted **[01:22:32]** offer. I'll try to make **[01:22:34]** a small teaser, and that is, **[01:22:36]** I think I can already say that **[01:22:38]** we will soon welcome Michal Pichouček **[01:22:40]** as a guest on Breakfast. That means **[01:22:42]** we will discuss this issue. **[01:22:44]** You also mentioned propaganda. **[01:22:46]** That will be another topic. Again, **[01:22:48]** it's in June, so you can **[01:22:50]** look forward to how this **[01:22:52]** will carry into the next century. **[01:22:54]** I'll ask **[01:22:56]** probably the last question. **[01:22:58]** It seems so to me because **[01:23:00]** there really is a lot. Do you see **[01:23:02]** this development of events as a crisis, or **[01:23:04]** do you also find a light at the end of the tunnel? **[01:23:06]** I am **[01:23:08]** an optimist and I think, **[01:23:10]** that **[01:23:12]** there is still a chance **[01:23:14]** to somehow **[01:23:16]** I don't know if that's the right word, **[01:23:18]** fix it. **[01:23:20]** I'm waiting for society's reaction. **[01:23:22]** I already see it today. **[01:23:24]** Again at Karlovka, **[01:23:26]** events were held there every year, **[01:23:28]** where something digital was discussed. **[01:23:30]** Last year there was a big **[01:23:32]** demand from students to meet **[01:23:34]** in person. It seems to me **[01:23:36]** that the trend is **[01:23:38]** that people are realizing **[01:23:40]** that they don't feel good about it and that **[01:23:42]** they are retreating back to the real world. **[01:23:44]** Like this, **[01:23:46]** no regulation will bring light **[01:23:48]** at the end of the tunnel. **[01:23:50]** That's a supportive matter, **[01:23:52]** but the reaction of society, **[01:23:54]** the instinct of self-preservation, **[01:23:56]** some healthy instincts, **[01:23:58]** I think that's **[01:24:00]** something that **[01:24:02]** will definitely come. Because people are **[01:24:04]** incredibly adaptable **[01:24:06]** and in history **[01:24:08]** it has always turned out well. **[01:24:10]** So, Ms. Věrová, **[01:24:12]** thank you for the preview.